Clarissa has made an interesting point: Why should people wanted to be medicated for who we are, including if we have difficulty picking up on social cues and others' feelings?
Her point seems to be: Why should we accommodate people who won't accept us for who we are - and presumably for how we behave while in ignorance of said cues and feelings?
Well, some things that Aspies do, while not understanding cues and feelings, hurt others. We insult people. We put people between a rock and a hard place by forcing them to express negative things, such as a lack of desire for a date, bluntly. That makes it hard for us to make and keep friends, good jobs, accommodating roommates, and particularly romantic relationships.
We even make it more difficult for people to distinguish actual criminals, in that we sometimes act the same ways that criminals act, such as by peering into people's windows, staring at and even following people (especially women) and pushing people's (implicit) boundaries. That means, among other things, that people may call the cops on us. Or even play vigilante and give us a beating...or worse.
Now, some of those real criminals are mighty grateful for the service some of us are providing them. So, they're happy to accept us for what we are. They'd love us to remain oblivious of people's thoughts and intentions - especially theirs as they gear up to beat, rob, kidnap, rape and even murder us. The last thing a thug wants is for people to jam his easy-victim sensors or detect and pre-empt his game.
If AS and autism spectrum conditions in general are disabilities, for which we can ask for accommodations - and I think they are - don't we owe it to both ourselves and society to pursue reasonable efforts to alleviate them?
What do you think?
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8 comments:
I realize that there are many ways in which my autism makes life more difficult for the neurotypical folks. However, there are also many ways in which NT people make my life more difficult for me. S why should I be the one who gets medicated to alleviate their existence? Maybe they should be medicated to alleviate mine?
Of course, there is a more reasonable approach to the issue where no one gets medicated and people simply try to understand that there are different ways of being. People with Asperger's are constantly forced to modify their behavior to accommodate the NT world. Maybe now is the time that people noticed our existence, recognized our right to be the way we are, and learned to modify their behavior - at least minimally - to accommodate us.
Hi Clarissa,
Your point that NTs sometimes make life more difficult for us (and for each other too) is well taken.
Looking specifically at picking up on social cues and others' feelings, that's a skill which benefits everyone. Some people may take gas-reducing pills so they don't risk farting in public. Likewise, some people who have difficulty grasping others' emotions may take medication to improve that ability.
Yes, some NTs (and even some Aspies) can be very nasty when others fail to read their minds, and that's inexcusable. On the other hand, wouldn't you like to, say, talk to your friends with a better sense of when they have time and energy for a long chat and when they need to leave shortly? Or know when's the best time to approach the boss for a raise? Or be more cautious around a likely mugger or rapist than an avergae stranger?
Everyone knows that there are many different languages in the world. That's no substitute for actual study of different languages, or at least use of phrasebooks, when talking to people from other countries. Nonverbal cues can be thought of as another language.
Last but not least, keep these issues in mind:
(1) There are over 100 NTs for each one of us. They could be forgiven for feeling that we should do the bulk of the accommodating in society.
(2) The only behavior we can control is our own. We drive defensively, making the extra effort to avoid collisions with drivers who don't extend us the same courtesy.
By the same token, we need to understand that there always will be many people - some of whom make decisions about how well our lives will turn out - who not only communicate primarily nonverbally but also expect us to understand them.
We can do what we can to make it so and have better work and personal relationships, or we can in effect say "it's my way or the highway" and get into conflicts, maybe get passed over for promotions or even fired, friends and lovers dumping us or even get beaten, robbed, raped or killed. That choice is ours.
Clarissa, this is starting to look like a one-to-one exchange. Maybe we should move this to email. Your profile is inaccessible; why don't you drop me a line at jeff_deutsch AT asplint.com?
Cheers,
Jeff Deutsch
Seems to me that "The Virtues of Caring What Other People Think" would be a better title, since you're talking about how making that accomodation is so important (and it applies even if one doesn't use medication to do it!) :)
"Yes, some NTs (and even some Aspies) can be very nasty when others fail to read their minds, and that's inexcusable."
I agree, it is inexcusable! It's like when a man who doesn't care what women think gets mad at a woman for not caring what he thinks, or when a white who doesn't care what blacks think gets mad at a black for not caring what she thinks.
Also see http://autismgadfly.blogspot.com/2010/07/neurodiversitys-interesting-take-on.html?showComment=1280109716341#c5731380165876686318
"Or be more cautious around a likely mugger or rapist than an avergae stranger?"
Some of the "accomodations" I've seen demanded esewhere even do the opposite!
Like you said here,
"...We even make it more difficult for people to distinguish actual criminals, in that we sometimes act the same ways that criminals act, such as by peering into people's windows, staring at and even following people (especially women) and pushing people's (implicit) boundaries..."
If we're supposed to accomodate austism and Asperger's by going "oh, maybe s/he can't help it, maybe it's the Asperger's, if I act like s/he's a likely mugger or rapist than that's discrimination" about this behavior...
...then not only would people with ASDs be supposed to *stay* oblivious of people's thoughts and intentions, but the rest of us would be supposed to *become* oblivious of people's thoughts and intentions. Imagine how much more danger you and I would be in if we made that "accomodation"!
Also see: http://feministing.com/2008/01/02/real_dolls_real_pimping_1/comment-page-2/#comment-220432
"...For a while there was a janitor in my office who was, well, creepy. I suspect he has some form of mild retardation, but the fact is, he never did to the men what he did to the women; he would come up behind me way too close and start talking right in my ear; he would wander into my female colleagues’ offices and sit down even if they were in the middle of working; he would insert himself into conversations between women. And there was something else…an undefinable but creepy vibe.
"Now, maybe he’s just socially awkward. But what if he’s not? If he doesn’t follow social norms about how close to stand how do I know if he’ll follow social norms about touching? If he follows me down the hall when I’ve given off clear signals that I don’t want him to, where else will he follow me?
"I’d rather be rude than be followed; I’d rather be rude than be groped; I’d rather be rude than be assaulted...
"...it is vitally important that especially men who are socially awkward understand what is at stake for women who are trying to read their signals, and that they understand that operating in a context in which the worst result of an interaction is being rejected is still a privilege. They need to know this so that they can better understand what is at stake in learning social cues. For women, reading these cues is about survival, and we just can’t take too many chances or cut too much slack. If a man stands too close and gives an inappropriate compliment, that tells us something about his ability or willingness to respect boundaries, and we can’t afford to make a mistake on that."
"(1) There are over 100 NTs for each one of us. They could be forgiven for feeling that we should do the bulk of the accommodating in society."
They could also be forgiven for thinking that you *are* NTs yourselves!
For example, when one does and says the same things an NT likely rapist does, they could be forgiven for thinking that one *is* an NT likely rapist.
First off, my apologies for the late response to Anonymous #1 and Anonymous #2!
I think we all basically agree. It's understandable for someone (perhaps especially a woman) to be suspicious of someone (perhaps especially a man) who does certain specific things. (Also, good point in the linked comment about it being more a power-differential thing than a gender thing.)
And under most circumstances, you certainly have a right to avoid whomever you wish on whatever grounds you see fit.
On the other hand, different people have responded very differently to unusual or even weird behavior. Some have actually screamed at the weird person, called the police or even asked their boyfriends/male friends to confront the person...and never even asked for the other person's side of the story.
It's one thing to say that if someone gives you the creeps, you don't want to be around him/her. It's quite another to conclude that if someone gives you the creeps, s/he definitely (or even probably) has ill intent, or probably is doing something wrong.
If it matters, those things are significantly less likely with Aspies who give you the creeps, because the assumption that they can pick up on your nonverbal signals and/or even know basic social graces is no longer that reliable.
(There are indeed, of course, many Aspies who know basic social graces, some of whom can even pick up on moment-to-moment nonverbal signals. [The former is easier, because it's a matter of teaching it and then "just" making sure it sticks.] However, the proportion of NTs for whom these assumptions hold is much higher.)
Accommodations (as distinct from excuses to keep allowing bad behavior) do not require Aspies or anyone else to become or stay oblivious. Quite the contrary.
More and more people have started discussing creepiness and harassment, particularly as it applies to conventions, over the last year or two. And I've given this quite a bit of thought.
I see two very different kinds of behavior. One kind is things like stepping too close, staring, following, not taking subtle hints (like "Sorry, I'm busy that day") to stop asking someone out, even light touching on the arm or shoulder. They certainly can be done by predators testing boundaries, but can also easily be done by the socially awkward. A good way to find out which is to explicitly ask the other person to stop.
The other kind is persisting despite explicit (as in "Please leave me alone") warnings, personal attacks (as in "You b***h!"), unconsented-to kissing, fondling and the like.
I believe these two different sorts of behavior should receive very different responses, both from the individual and, if reported, from the authorities (convention management, college judicial affairs, police, etc).
Meanwhile, folks who feel they might be danger of inadvertently tripping people's alarms should check out these really cool informative resources and learn.
(NB: The first two are NSFW in a few places.)
Also, Nerdiquette 101 is a great place to go for (SFW) continuing education.
What do you think?
Jeff Deutsch
First, excellent links!
"If it matters, those things are significantly less likely with Aspies who give you the creeps"
...and it doesn't matter during the moment at which one *cannot know* if the other one is Aspie or not.
"They certainly can be done by predators testing boundaries, but can also easily be done by the socially awkward. A good way to find out which is to explicitly ask the other person to stop."
The trouble is, explicitly asking the other person to stop (instead of something like trying to walk away without trying to find out which) can sometimes result in the personal attacks (as in "You b***h!").
Hence some people trying to leave in order to reduce the chances of a personal attack in the first place, instead of sticking around in order to find out which in order to give the other person a chance if he or she does turn out to be Aspie.
"I believe these two different sorts of behavior should receive very different responses, both from the individual and, if reported, from the authorities (convention management, college judicial affairs, police, etc)."
Good points!
Hello Anonymous (whichever one you are),
Glad to "see" you again!
Even though one doesn't know at the moment whether or not a given individual setting off your alarms really poses a threat, I personally feel it does matter that at least some don't, because it's now a question of whether or not to lump everyone in a given group together.
In fact, some may call it profiling. In my own opinion, some profiling is unavoidable. Whereas other profiling, I'm sure we can all agree, is problematic. It's a question of just where to draw the line.
All that having been said, to reiterate from my previous comment you have every right (under most circumstances) to leave someone whom you don't want to be around.
You have a good point about the risk of asking someone to stop doing something that makes you uncomfortable. (Heck, more than once I've experienced the downside you mentioned!)
One thing you can do to reduce your risk is to use wording and tone that are assertive but not aggressive. If you show, not fear (which is what people commonly show when they think they're looking "tough") but respect for the other person as a human being -- while insisting that s/he respect your boundaries -- more likely s/he will show respect in return.
If you'd like to continue this discussion, please feel free to respond.
Cheers,
Jeff Deutsch
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